GFree Battle Report

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

20101210

Post 

GFree Battle Report




Basically since my com still sucks I will still be doing battle reports that I'll put out from time to time. These may not always be limited to a specific match but a general look at the state of the metagame.

Report 0001: Thoughts on the impact of faster Hallucination times.


Last edited by GFree on Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:20 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : First report)
avatar
GFree
Moderator

Posts : 19
Join date : 2010-12-10
Age : 27
Location : Singapore

Back to top Go down

- Similar topics
Share this post on: diggdeliciousredditstumbleuponslashdotyahoogooglelive

GFree Battle Report :: Comments

avatar

Post on Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:03 pm by danielgwj

Ok...will check out your Battle Reports
Is this your first one? or u done some already?

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:19 pm by GFree

Report 0001 - Impacts of a faster Hallucination.
(content subject to editing, likely going to add on thoughts on matchups as a separate section)

Recently with the PTR 1.2 patch, it's fairly obvious Blizzard wants to have Hallucination used in regular play, so I thought I'd take a careful look into what their proposed changes would mean for the metagame.

First off, let's take a look at Hallucination as an ability, costing 50 more energy than Forcefield, and 25 more energy than Guardian Shield, not many Protoss players feel there are many situations where Hallucination would be a worthy tradeoff for the other 2 spells, the Sentry is capable of.

Hallucination has many applications on paper, so let's take a look at a few.

Scouting: Simply because you can make the fastest unit in the Protoss arsenal, the Phoenix, you can easily fly over your opponent's base early on to get a good scout. Now the benefit of this is that the Protoss player gets a chance to make a more informed decision about how he/she wants to approach the mid-game, whether to expand, tech or attack. However, I feel that for this to be effective, one would need to research Hallucination before Warpgate or you'd be behind in terms of your mid-game strategy, assuming this can be offset by getting 3 Gateways are more Sentries to balance out your economy. Still I don't think whatever army composition you end up with would be adequate against an early push if you research Hallucination immediately. More than likely, you'd make a few more units before Hallucination research starts. the 100/100 cost means that unless you make another Zealot, Hallucination will still wait until after a few Stalkers (which is an interesting point in itself because if you want to line up the completion of the research with at least one Hallucination immediately, you'd need to cram a Sentry in at some point early on to save up energy. It is possible we might see Hallucination being used more often though in 1.2, possibly followed up with 3 Gates, into expand or tech, but unlikely, any offense.

Meatshields: Hallucinations take 200% damage (though Immortals DO have Hardened Shell so they take 20 capped) so in most situations I feel the energy would be better spent on Forcefields and Guardian Shields. However, as players understand the game better, we may see people abusing target priority with Guardian Shield.

Spotting: Since we can Hallucinate flying units, it is possible to use Hallucination well with Blink Stalkers for early aggressive options. Would probably only be effective in the PvT and PvP matchup because the current metagame tends to not have spotting structures around their bases due to Collosi and Observers giving vision later on for large Protoss armies to take out buildings in an attempt to bait a confrontation. However, this early aggression would be very gas heavy, so assuming it's even possible, you wouldn't have many Sentries if your opponent attempted any early aggression. As for late game high ground spotting, we have better options, Observers, Collosi and if the 1.2 patch is to remain the same, Phoenixes and Void Rays as they might see more use.

So now that we've looked at the possible benefits of Hallucination, let's look at it's downsides.

Smaller Army: Without Warpgate tech, units will take a much longer time to be produced (10 seconds each if I'm not mistaken). Less units plus the extra gas that reduces our Sentry count means that the Protoss player might end up very vulnerable to early pressure. More gateways might make up for this, but it may not hold off a 4-Gate.

Reinforcement: Aggression is less likely to be sustainable since units take longer to be produced and still need to travel. However, this should only be a problem early on.

Late Tech: This is crucial. We might end up going for a more 'effective' tech path, but the combination of a smaller army due to lack of Warpgate and the lack of Sentries due to all the teching might be fatal.


My conclusion: I still think Warpgate would be the preferred opening still but early Blink Stalker/Hallucination aggression might punish Terrans who go for fast Factory openings and might give more aggressive openings against Toss which can delay Collosi tech, and later on, be supported by Stargate units (if your opponent went for more Immortals) or Robo units (if your opponent went for more Gateway compositions to defend). Generally I don't feel this would affect the PvZ matchup as Protoss usually want to be able to be constantly aggressive against Zerg.

(content subject to editing, likely going to add on thoughts on matchups as a separate section)

Last edited by GFree on Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wanted to explain that I might still add on more to this report in the future.)

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:19 pm by GFree

danielgwj wrote:Ok...will check out your Battle Reports
Is this your first one? or u done some already?

I'm Jeffrey, the guy who types the SEA mini-tourney battle report.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:03 pm by danielgwj

Oh, it's you..didn't know it was you on facebook page
Saw some of them...haha good job man

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:12 pm by GFree

Thanks Smile

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:55 am by OpKeKRoAkash

The thing is,they dont mean skip warpaget tech for hallu.
No, that would be completelly useless.Even if u get early sentryes,they have less no energy at all for hallu.Getting warpgate is natural,because u need them to build energy.
For ppl not liking stargate builds and because obs are so slow and can get sniped (by smart zergs who build 1 overseer once lair gets done),u can use a hallucinated phoenix to scout.
They function just like BW corsairs,they give u an ideea of the zergs expoes/tech/number of drones,the only thing is u dont spend money on aditional tech/unit and its faster then an observer.
So for 100/100 u get a pretty good investement.
The only problem with sentryes is that theyr godly early-mid,but once collosi/thors/ultras appear,they become somewhat less efective,because the massive units shatter ur FF and ur fucked.
Theyr only use,except Guardian Shield (which i consider it valuable only against mm and mutas) is hallucination.Why is that?Because if u have left over sentryes u can summon in hallucinated units of what u have.
If u have collosi and want to confuse him,hallu some collosi.
But if u dont have any big units like carriers/voids/collosi,things which u dont want to get focused fired right away,u can hallucinate some immortals.
Yes,those bad boys have Hardened Shields available to them.Meaning u can tank ultras with them.Yeah,thats pretty much the only true benefit of Hallucinate besides confusing ur enemy.
And if u see a overseer/raven/obs try to snipe them,so they dont reveal ur hallucinated units.



Other changes regarding patch 1.2.0:

-Observer cost reduced to 25/75 from 50/100.
First of all,that will help alot with polt atacks (marine/raven/banshee timing atack),because every gas counts .If u build 2 obs (one for ur base in case of cloacked banshees and 1 to scout) thats 50 gas less,which can be half of a sentry or a stalker.
For the ppl saying "lol man 50 gas is big",u should know that the Polt Atack comes at about 8-9 minute mark,and if u are fast expanding,u have 1-2 gas geysers and u already need phoenixes against banshees,so having that 50 gas can be a life saver.

-Phoenix build time reduced from 45 to 35.
Considering the fact that Fungal Growth change has been reverted (it still affects air units),zerg players can rest assure this wont affect them very much.
We might see an increase in 3 gate 1 stargate builds or 2 stargate openings.
That might be a good thing against all the muta/lingers (i invented a new word here Very Happy),it might deter them in trying something else Smile.
It will also give a chance when trying to at least have a defence when going like blink stalkers/HT against muta ling and u want to have some form of AtA defence,in case u dont feel ur stalkers dont cut it.
It's dont much,it means like 4 phoenixes instead of 3 in the same amount of time.It isnt game breaking,but it increases toss options,a thing which we lack (going collosi 75% of games,the rest being 4 gate or blink stalker all-in).


-Void ray looses Flux Vanes upgrade but gains dmg vs Massive.
This change is rather interesting.For those u know,void ray has received 2 nerfs since beta until now.
The first is -1 range (it had 7 in beta) and a semi nerf (reduce the dmg of phase 2) but give a bonus vs armored.
Now from what i've read,the bonus vs massive should stack with the bonus vs armored.This doesnt affect the matchups at all,because all the massive units are also armored (anyone seen a massive ling?Razz),so in conclusion,the VR lost mobility at the gain of increased dmg vs targets which was already good at.
This change was made (the loss of Flux Vanes) because tosses learned to abuse it and use the VR as a late game expo hunter in PvZ.The zerg couldnt do much except keep a infestor at each base to slow them down while the hidras came.This didnt seemed too imbalanced to me,because u could use nydus worm defensevely at ur outlining expoes and move ur hidra army quite easy.
The only problem that some zergs couldnt do that and all theyr expoes were burned before they could respond.
Pls note that in BW there werent a single air unit which was both potent vs ground and also air.
There were mutas/wraiths/scouts.U had also carriers and BC.But while those 3 units which i listed has shity AtG atack and BC/carrier are hard to tech,the VR is easy to tech and can be amassed quite fast with 2 stargates+chrono.So thats the problem.
And for the VR late game users (if u ever get that long and u need VR) u can use Kiwikaki's trick,get a MS (omg a mothership!!) ,use ur VR to kill a expo and recall back.
It will work post patch too,because u dont care about the speed.

Hopefully this has been insighfull and pls pardon the grammar mistakes.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:01 am by GFree

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:The thing is,they dont mean skip warpaget tech for hallu.
No, that would be completelly useless.Even if u get early sentryes,they have less no energy at all for hallu.Getting warpgate is natural,because u need them to build energy.
For ppl not liking stargate builds and because obs are so slow and can get sniped (by smart zergs who build 1 overseer once lair gets done),u can use a hallucinated phoenix to scout.
They function just like BW corsairs,they give u an ideea of the zergs expoes/tech/number of drones,the only thing is u dont spend money on aditional tech/unit and its faster then an observer.
So for 100/100 u get a pretty good investement.
The only problem with sentryes is that theyr godly early-mid,but once collosi/thors/ultras appear,they become somewhat less efective,because the massive units shatter ur FF and ur fucked.
Theyr only use,except Guardian Shield (which i consider it valuable only against mm and mutas) is hallucination.Why is that?Because if u have left over sentryes u can summon in hallucinated units of what u have.
If u have collosi and want to confuse him,hallu some collosi.
But if u dont have any big units like carriers/voids/collosi,things which u dont want to get focused fired right away,u can hallucinate some immortals.
Yes,those bad boys have Hardened Shields available to them.Meaning u can tank ultras with them.Yeah,thats pretty much the only true benefit of Hallucinate besides confusing ur enemy.
And if u see a overseer/raven/obs try to snipe them,so they dont reveal ur hallucinated units.

Um, what do you mean you need Warpgates to build energy? My post already accounted for smaller armies (if that's what you mean) by having more warpgates, and if you wait to get Hallucination after Warpgate it'll be too slow to scout early timing attacks, especially against incoming cloaked Banshees. If you did that, you'd still need to tech blindly. Also in regards to FF in the lategame, it's still really useful for baiting his T3 foreward, to the front of his army which you could snipe then. Guardian shield is great of course too. The tradeoff benefits with Hallucination aren't really there yet, thuohg with testing we might have new uses (hold position Hallucinations?).



OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
-Observer cost reduced to 25/75 from 50/100.
First of all,that will help alot with polt atacks (marine/raven/banshee timing atack),because every gas counts .If u build 2 obs (one for ur base in case of cloacked banshees and 1 to scout) thats 50 gas less,which can be half of a sentry or a stalker.
For the ppl saying "lol man 50 gas is big",u should know that the Polt Atack comes at about 8-9 minute mark,and if u are fast expanding,u have 1-2 gas geysers and u already need phoenixes against banshees,so having that 50 gas can be a life saver.

Agreed for the most part, I'm sure it's possible without the Stargate but it sure will be a lot more convenient to deal with if a Stargate is dropped while the 2 Obs are made.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
-Phoenix build time reduced from 45 to 35.
Considering the fact that Fungal Growth change has been reverted (it still affects air units),zerg players can rest assure this wont affect them very much.
We might see an increase in 3 gate 1 stargate builds or 2 stargate openings.
That might be a good thing against all the muta/lingers (i invented a new word here Very Happy),it might deter them in trying something else Smile.
It will also give a chance when trying to at least have a defence when going like blink stalkers/HT against muta ling and u want to have some form of AtA defence,in case u dont feel ur stalkers dont cut it.
It's dont much,it means like 4 phoenixes instead of 3 in the same amount of time.It isnt game breaking,but it increases toss options,a thing which we lack (going collosi 75% of games,the rest being 4 gate or blink stalker all-in).

'This wont' affect them very much' is really a weird statement to me considering Infestors are still the better part of Zerg's highest levels of tech. The whole point of the patch is that it will affect them, and they'll probably need to scout better and spend more on defenses. Also, it doesn't deter muta/ling as much as it'll force more Corruptors. My whole opinion on their ideas for changes is that they're trying to encourage more T3 use.

Yeah it'll definitely be great against muta harass but this shortened time actually means, we won't be able to support 2 Star like before. 1 base = 220 gas per minute, Phoenixes = 100 gas in 35 seconds, you'd end up having idle Stargates here and there or only Zealots.

And.. the one extra Phoenix in that time is actually very significant, because it affects the Zerg if he opts to use Queens in his defense. We might see more people getting 2 Queens earlier for instance.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
-Void ray looses Flux Vanes upgrade but gains dmg vs Massive.
This change is rather interesting.For those u know,void ray has received 2 nerfs since beta until now.
The first is -1 range (it had 7 in beta) and a semi nerf (reduce the dmg of phase 2) but give a bonus vs armored.
Now from what i've read,the bonus vs massive should stack with the bonus vs armored.This doesnt affect the matchups at all,because all the massive units are also armored (anyone seen a massive ling?Razz),so in conclusion,the VR lost mobility at the gain of increased dmg vs targets which was already good at.
This change was made (the loss of Flux Vanes) because tosses learned to abuse it and use the VR as a late game expo hunter in PvZ.The zerg couldnt do much except keep a infestor at each base to slow them down while the hidras came.This didnt seemed too imbalanced to me,because u could use nydus worm defensevely at ur outlining expoes and move ur hidra army quite easy.
The only problem that some zergs couldnt do that and all theyr expoes were burned before they could respond.
Pls note that in BW there werent a single air unit which was both potent vs ground and also air.
There were mutas/wraiths/scouts.U had also carriers and BC.But while those 3 units which i listed has shity AtG atack and BC/carrier are hard to tech,the VR is easy to tech and can be amassed quite fast with 2 stargates+chrono.So thats the problem.
And for the VR late game users (if u ever get that long and u need VR) u can use Kiwikaki's trick,get a MS (omg a mothership!!) ,use ur VR to kill a expo and recall back.
It will work post patch too,because u dont care about the speed.

Agree to an extent. The amount of time taken to beat the unit matters a lot to it's ability to contribute to a large battle, with multiple units participating, and therefore it's tradeoff value, using the minerals and gas for other units. Void Rays aren't even cost effective against BCs currently. This buff will make PvP more interesting hopefully and PvT will generally remain the same but factory play will be shut down even further now.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
Hopefully this has been insighfull and pls pardon the grammar mistakes.

Awesome reply, I love to get feedback like this. Thanks =D

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:54 pm by OpKeKRoAkash


Um, what do you mean you need Warpgates to build energy? My post already accounted for smaller armies (if that's what you mean) by having more warpgates, and if you wait to get Hallucination after Warpgate it'll be too slow to scout early timing attacks, especially against incoming cloaked Banshees. If you did that, you'd still need to tech blindly. Also in regards to FF in the lategame, it's still really useful for baiting his T3 foreward, to the front of his army which you could snipe then. Guardian shield is great of course too. The tradeoff benefits with Hallucination aren't really there yet, thuohg with testing we might have new uses (hold position Hallucinations?).

U understood bad.I said "u need warpgates first,and allow them to build up energy".By "them" i was reffering to sentries Smile.
And hallu is usefull against zerg mostly,because against terran u need to get an robo always.Because even if u hallucinated phoenix in his base,and he proxyed the starport and u cant find it and u dont think he is going banshees,will u be able to get robo in time ?
I dont think so.U need obs always agains terran,if u dont want to autoloose vs cloacked banshees.
And the thing regarding "baiting" his T3? Well if we talk about Z here,ultras will shatter FF if they step on it,ultras being massive.
The only good use for sentryes in late game is Guardian shield vs MM (using them against roach/hidra is pretty weak,as guardian shield reduces very little dmg compared to mm) and Hallucinated Immortals against zerg (because they retain Hardened shields) or any High tier unit (void/carrier/collosus) to confuse the enemy.
By end game u will wish to switch from sentryes to either HT or any other suport unit.
They are meant as a suport unit and in end game they dont cut it anymore for theyr cost.
For 50 more gas a HT can do things much better.By late game (assuming balanced players and on aproximately equal bases or zerg has +1) u should have enough troops to not rely on FF to not get surrounded.
And another downside to them is the lack of a energy upgrade.If u get them mid/late,they wont have enough energy except for a FF which can be shattered or will mean little to no effect.




Agree to an extent. The amount of time taken to beat the unit matters a lot to it's ability to contribute to a large battle, with multiple units participating, and therefore it's tradeoff value, using the minerals and gas for other units. Void Rays aren't even cost effective against BCs currently. This buff will make PvP more interesting hopefully and PvT will generally remain the same but factory play will be shut down even further now.

U can do an tank/hellion/viking/marauder build ?Smile With no thors ?Smile So voids dont get bonus vs massive and marines+vikes counter VR badly.that might work,altought im not a terran.But that build hardcounters everything the toss has.Add some medivacs so ur MM wont die too fast and u have a decent build Smile.Food for the tought.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:03 am by GFree

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
U understood bad.I said "u need warpgates first,and allow them to build up energy".By "them" i was reffering to sentries Smile.

Like I said, getting an extra Gateway will offset the production impact allowing you to still get the Sentries out to charge up energy. It's the timing of the first Sentry that is the only real concern.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
And hallu is usefull against zerg mostly,because against terran u need to get an robo always.Because even if u hallucinated phoenix in his base,and he proxyed the starport and u cant find it and u dont think he is going banshees,will u be able to get robo in time ?
I dont think so.U need obs always agains terran,if u dont want to autoloose vs cloacked banshees.
And the thing regarding "baiting" his T3? Well if we talk about Z here,ultras will shatter FF if they step on it,ultras being massive.

Assuming, the Zerg player actually gets Ultras (Ultralisks are really unpopular in the current metagame due to small maps, lack of mobility, and general lack of synergy) if you don't have even T2, Immortals or Void Rays, you deserve to lose. If he charges his Ultralisks forward to break an FF while you have those, that Ultralisk will be sniped so fast. So yes, you want to bait his T3 Ultralisk to the front where your T2 units will take it out. Forcefield is an amazing spell even up to the late game, it's not as simple as massive breaks it, yay. It's about, what that massive unit is, and what sort of position you are in the game to deal with it. Sadly for a Zerg, our T2 Robo or Stargate units deal pretty well against Ultralisks. Unless you're investing heavily in High Templars, you'll be fine. Even Dark Templar deal well against Ultralisks because gas to Ultralisks mean less gas for Overseers. You're looking at a direct counter sense without considering the path up there. What sort of game plan gives Zerg a good transition into Ultralisks? In what sort of situation would a Toss not be able to scout it and thus, react to it?

Against Terran, if you do it this way, yes you can. It's pretty simple that if you're in his base and see double gas, and lots of Marines, automatically, you know he's hiding tech. And the most likely one is... BANSHEES!!! It's simply making use of scouting. You don't NEED to see the Starport, seeing double gas but nothing that uses gas is enough to tell you Banshees are coming.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
The only good use for sentryes in late game is Guardian shield vs MM (using them against roach/hidra is pretty weak,as guardian shield reduces very little dmg compared to mm) and Hallucinated Immortals against zerg (because they retain Hardened shields) or any High tier unit (void/carrier/collosus) to confuse the enemy.

Guardian shield is pretty awesome against most Zerg stuff because Zerg depends on masses of units rather than quality high damage in a single attack units. Hydralisks deal 10 damage from 12, Roaches deal 14 damage from 16, not inclusive of armor existing on the unit or upgrades. That's about 17% and 13% damage less respectively from those units alone. A single point of armor means almost 25% and 18% damage reduction. That's REALLY big. What about Lings? 3 damage down from 5 (Yes, even in the late game, Zergs make Lings, lots of em in fact). Mutalisks, 7 damage down from 9. 40% and 22% damage reduction is HUGE. You're not going to be MASSING Sentries, so whatever Sentries you have would be better off spending energy to use Guardian Shields to give you an edge on mass army confrontations and give you positioning power.

Regarding Immortal meatshields, it'll be reduced to 10 but then doubled to 20 cos it's a Hallucination. So that's still 5 hits from Roaches, which will be massed. Also Zerg doens't depend on high damage but fast attack speeds and massing. Hydralisks don't care about Hardened Shell cos they attack every .83 in game seconds, and let's not talk about Lings.

Finally, tech confusing an be offset by scouting. Also, even if he does fall for it, he's not about to build the structure that produces an efficient response unit in your face. Are you really going to bet your early game (which is very fragile, for Protoss) on a surprised based tactic? In the mid to late game, most Protoss get all their tech trees anyway.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
By end game u will wish to switch from sentryes to either HT or any other suport unit.
They are meant as a suport unit and in end game they dont cut it anymore for theyr cost.
For 50 more gas a HT can do things much better.By late game (assuming balanced players and on aproximately equal bases or zerg has +1) u should have enough troops to not rely on FF to not get surrounded.
And another downside to them is the lack of a energy upgrade.If u get them mid/late,they wont have enough energy except for a FF which can be shattered or will mean little to no effect.

You're not going to get Sentries late game. You just shouldn't lose your Sentries in the early to mid game. You'll need them up until you're comfortably on 2 bases. Sentries are the key unit in unit retention. It's not about getting surrounded, it's about having a greater advantage in an army to army confrontation. If I can cut off half his army in the later parts of the game or prevent up to 13% of the damage he deals to me (likely more) to have a clearer more comfortable win in that confrontation, that will give me a greater advantage to walk into later parts of the game with, or perhaps give me an army large enough that i can comfortably push with, knowing that even if he already has reinforcements in his base I can handle it, why wouldn't I? 2 extra Stalkers or 2 Zealots and a Sentry? The Stalkers have a lower DPS, and the Sentries can block ramps as an aggressive move too.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
U can do an tank/hellion/viking/marauder build ?Smile With no thors ?Smile So voids dont get bonus vs massive and marines+vikes counter VR badly.that might work,altought im not a terran.But that build hardcounters everything the toss has.Add some medivacs so ur MM wont die too fast and u have a decent build Smile.Food for the tought.

Starters... Phoenixes 1 on 1 with Vikings will win. No micro, and including the first volley Vikings will get off due to their range. Second, tradeoff between Medivacs and Vikings from the Starports. Anyway you should scout. If Void Rays aren't effective, don't get them. Plus, that composition is quite immobile so Phoenix harassment would be good, or he'll have to turtle and you can then expand. Even if he does decide to push, guess which unit can save your ass? SENTRIES with FORCEFIELDS!!!! =D

Though seriously, you're safe. If he pushes out, he can''t get Medivacs cos his Viking count won't be high enough to match our Phoenix production (35 seconds if this goes through, not inclusive of Chronoboosts, and Sentries, that were made earlier of course, using Forcefields to buy you time).

Against Stargate play, Marines will be the real key unit, not Vikings and that extra Phoenix that you mentioned in your first response can mean all the difference in keeping his Marine count low.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:08 am by OpKeKRoAkash

What about Lings? 3 damage down from 5 (Yes, even in the late game, Zergs make Lings, lots of em in fact)

Guardian shield works only for range.And what i meant by "not so usefull against zerg,compared to mm
" is this:assuming we consider zealots taking most of the dmg,fully upgraded MM means marines deal 9 dmg and marauders 13 (26 vs armored).That means zeals with 0/0 (armor/shield armor) take 7 and 11 dmg, which is very big reduction.
Now roach hidra scales off very good with dmg upgrades.roach gets +2 per dmg upgrades.
So,roach hidra gets to 15 dmg hidra and 22 dmg roach.So GS will reduce dmg to 13 dmg from hidras and 20 dmg from roaches.Is not so big reduction compared to MM and take into account that hidras atack really fast and roach dmg is not conditioned vs any armor type (compared to marauders).




Also,regarding ur ideea that if a ultra goes to shatter a FF it will get sniped.No man,he will just atack move his whole army with his ultras spearheading his army,crush ur ff and surround u with lings.
Ultras with 3/3 and Chitinous Plating are the very counter to stalker/collosus army.Stalkers (assuming +3 dmg,deal 17 dmg vs armored) will deal a total of 11 dmg to them lol.
Collosi will also deal very little because armor is deducted twice because they atack twice,also reducing theyr dmg even more.

U say that ultras are not the popular choice in pvz.Well that is because of the maps.
Have u tryed an Iccup map? Those maps are not favoring any race and have lots of open space.There u will see that ultra/ling is very deadly and no amount of FF will save u if they rush in and corner u somewhere.Remeber,besides the reduced that,ultras deal 45 dmg vs armored at 0.83 with +3 melee upgrade and with 33% splash.The litterrally kill stalkers in 3 sec.
the only true counter to ultras is either mass immortals with storm for the lings or mass voids.
Zergs use broods instead of ultras because theyr better on the tight maps which ultras find it hard to manouver.
Once blizz gets some decent maps out or tourneys decide to use ICcup maps instead,things will change in late game pvz.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:52 am by GFree

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
Guardian shield works only for range.

Whoops, stillthe other 3 points apply. My bad though.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
And what i meant by "not so usefull against zerg,compared to mm
" is this:assuming we consider zealots taking most of the dmg,fully upgraded MM means marines deal 9 dmg and marauders 13 (26 vs armored).That means zeals with 0/0 (armor/shield armor) take 7 and 11 dmg, which is very big reduction.
Now roach hidra scales off very good with dmg upgrades.roach gets +2 per dmg upgrades.
So,roach hidra gets to 15 dmg hidra and 22 dmg roach.So GS will reduce dmg to 13 dmg from hidras and 20 dmg from roaches.Is not so big reduction compared to MM and take into account that hidras atack really fast and roach dmg is not conditioned vs any armor type (compared to marauders).

13% and 10% is still pretty significant in large army battles, especially when most of our tech units have some base armor (you should have some tech units at least and Stalkers have base armor). It's again about getting an advantage. Yes, you'll cut Sentry production once you're comfortably in the mid-game, I never said you'd continue getting them, but Sentries preserved from the early parts of the game (5-6 I should guess unless you were pushed early and lost a few) would be better of using Forcefields and Guardian Shields. The matchups aren't parallel but even a 10% damage reduction, for a large part of your army, before upgrades and base armor is better than spending more energy on a hallucinated Immortal that just takes 5 - 7 big hits, or 16 Ling hits. Plus, Overseers would reveal Hallucinated units anyway, in which case your opponent could still micro to focus fire any key units in his army. At least Forcefield requires him to make a very costly tech decision if he wants to have a unit that can break it, but isn't really that good, and Guardian Shield just tips any mass army confrontations in your favor, or balances it even if you're in a tough spot.

Also you're comparing a T1-T2 mix with a T1 mix. It's a significantly gas heavier investment.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
Also,regarding ur ideea that if a ultra goes to shatter a FF it will get sniped.No man,he will just atack move his whole army with his ultras spearheading his army,crush ur ff and surround u with lings.
Ultras with 3/3 and Chitinous Plating are the very counter to stalker/collosus army.Stalkers (assuming +3 dmg,deal 17 dmg vs armored) will deal a total of 11 dmg to them lol.
Collosi will also deal very little because armor is deducted twice because they atack twice,also reducing theyr dmg even more.

You have a Collosus ball, and you didn't scout? If you did, you'd have more that enough time to produce Immortals. In that situation, you'd deserve to lose.

Ultralisks aren't cheap to produce. If he has a significant Ultralisk army, you didn't pressure him at all. If he just got a few to break Forcefields, think of the tradeoff, that's gas which isn't in Roaches, Broodlords, Hydralisks, etc which are really more deadly in a fight. If he made Ultralisks because of a T1 50/100 unit, that is great, and if he's on a significant number of bases compared to you, it doesn't matter what he uses to win. He out macro'd and out expanded. Pressure him in the early to mid-game and you'll never see Ultralisks.

Also, the changes to Ultralisks seem like it might be a nerf according to some tests people are doing on TL.

Either way, I'd hate 2 Mutas and 4 Lings more than an Ultralisk. It's just more convenient flying over Forcefields than crashing through them, if his army can a-move yours, you lost in macro or scouting, not because of Ultralisks. Why are you massing units without any idea of his composition? Also, according to Zergs I've talked to, any sort of quick tech to T3 is kinda risky, they'd prefer to expand. Ultralisks aren't useless, but at the late game, you're army ball shouldn't be in positions where you can't respond or reinforce, simply because the Protoss late game army is actually the most immobile in my opinion. Even with warp-ins, just means we reinforce faster.

Plus if Stargate opennings get more popular with the next patch, even if you have a butt tonne of Sentries using Forcefield, no Zerg is gonna get a 300/200 unit that's gonna get stared to death by a Void Ray.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
U say that ultras are not the popular choice in pvz.Well that is because of the maps.
Have u tryed an Iccup map? Zergs use broods instead of ultras because theyr better on the tight maps which ultras find it hard to manouver. Once blizz gets some decent maps out or tourneys decide to use ICcup maps instead,things will change in late game pvz.

I've seen God's Garden and Sanghu Crossing. Love the latter, but those maps aren't currently used on the ladder and in major tourneys. State of the game man.

When that time comes, Blizzard will look through the current stats of units and possibly release a patch, but the current units are designed around the current ladder. ICCup maps have a great design, and I love the amount of scouting it allows for but I don't think we can look at a different and say something is too good or too bad there. If anything, I do believe Ultralisks are too costly for Zerg players because there is no viable transitions into Ultralisks.

Right now it's just, more of a lategame siege tool if you didn't have a Spire, which... almost every Zerg gets, even when they go for Hydralisks because the current metagame points that the Protoss follow up is Collosi, because Roaches in the front will make Storms a little less useful compared to Collosi.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
Those maps are not favoring any race and have lots of open space.There u will see that ultra/ling is very deadly and no amount of FF will save u if they rush in and corner u somewhere.Remeber,besides the reduced that,ultras deal 45 dmg vs armored at 0.83 with +3 melee upgrade and with 33% splash.The litterrally kill stalkers in 3 sec.
the only true counter to ultras is either mass immortals with storm for the lings or mass voids.

Broods also have long range that allow Broods to fire from a safe distance and mess with the AI with broodlings.
Also, you're comparing a T3 unit to a T1.5 unit. If you rushed for Collosi, that's the risk you incur, but if you do pressure or scout with observers or hallucinations, you should have adequate time to prepare and have Immortals.

Also there's Blink Stalker, Dark Templar synergy. Less gas for Overseers so it's harder for him to push cos you can snipe the Overseer, Blink away and have your Dark Templars block his path and that will allow you time to get Void Rays and Immortals. So no matter what tech path you went for, if you scout, you can respond to Ultralisks even with support from Lings. That's the advantage of positioning.

Last edited by GFree on Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:43 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:19 am by OpKeKRoAkash



Broods also have long range that allow Broods to fire from a safe distance and mess with the AI with broodlings.
Also, you're comparing a T3 unit to a T1.5 unit. If you rushed for Collosi, that's the risk you incur, but if you do pressure or scout with observers or hallucinations, you should have adequate time to prepare and have Immortals.

Also there's Blink Stalker, Dark Templar synergy. Less gas for Overseers so it's harder for him to push cos you can snipe the Overseer, Blink away and have your Dark Templars block his path and that will allow you time to get Void Rays and Immortals. So no matter what tech path you went for, if you scout, you can respond to Ultralisks even with support from Lings. That's the advantage of positioning.

The thing is i used stalker vs ultra case because the stalker is the bulk of the protoss army most of the times.Its our only fast replenishing unit which sucks less then others.
Zeals are only good lings and mostly useless against roaches.HT/DT are used with finesse and not massed.Sentries are more of a support caster which deals little dmg.
The stalker is the only unit which basically sucks then the rest of the gate units.Thats why i made the ultra vs stalker comparisson.

Second,regarding ur stalker/dt combo.Maybe is the time for zergs to start being creative? What stops the zerg from using 2-3 spore crawlers with them in case the overseer dies? they only cost minerals and opposed to the overseer u only loose ur minerals invested,while when u loose ur Overseer u loose ur suply and a unit in which u invested gas.

Also regarding zergs starting to become more creative and a way to transition into ultras.
What about a mass queen/ultra/infestor(for FG) and some spore crawlers for detection/air support push ? Upgraded queens are really imba against massed voids.And if u FG them,queens have 7 range compared to VR 6 range and can heal.Also ultra is almost invulnerable with armor upgrades and Chitinous plating +transfuse.
Immortals? U think he will have like 10 ? If he has like 2-4,NP 2 of them and focus fire the rest.Remember,ultras rape stalkers,the backbone of the toss army,are almost immune to zeal dmg and with proper micro u can dispose of the immortals.And regarding the VR,ur queen force + FG can easily kill them.(Altough this strat is creep bound,with all those queens u can spawn 10k creep tumors)

And remember that toss cant get voids/immortals and stalkers and collosi at the same time lol.

And regarding the choice between broods and ultras.Broods outrange stalkers but if let in the open ,stalkers can just blink under them and snipe them,even at the cost many stalkers.Remember that broods cost just as much as ultras and are quite squishy.theyr better used in a stalemate situation where the toss has turtled,not in normal combat.

Regarding maps,saying that "that is the situation" is not a valid argument.All the pro players have complained about the current state of maps.All ppl know that they are toss "favored maps" or "zerg oriented maps".
So relying on Blizz error is not a valid argument.Maps change matchups.Once they fix that we will see much use of the ultras.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:13 pm by GFree

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
The thing is i used stalker vs ultra case because the stalker is the bulk of the protoss army most of the times.Its our only fast replenishing unit which sucks less then others.
Zeals are only good lings and mostly useless against roaches.HT/DT are used with finesse and not massed.Sentries are more of a support caster which deals little dmg.
The stalker is the only unit which basically sucks then the rest of the gate units.Thats why i made the ultra vs stalker comparisson.

Well then scout, I've already accounted that with Observers, Phoenixes or Hallucinations, you should have more than enough ability to tell when he gets Hive, let alone Ultralisk Caverns. In fact, as many Zergs have already stated, nothing from Hive tech hits air, so get a Stargate or 2.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
Second,regarding ur stalker/dt combo.Maybe is the time for zergs to start being creative? What stops the zerg from using 2-3 spore crawlers with them in case the overseer dies? they only cost minerals and opposed to the overseer u only loose ur minerals invested,while when u loose ur Overseer u loose ur suply and a unit in which u invested gas.

Spores force the Zerg to be defensive even with those Ultralisks. Using Spores doesn't stop Stalkers from Blinking in and killing it. In fact, it's even worse, cos it can't run away as easily as an Overseer with your Ultralisks fat asses blocking it. Sure, it frees up more gas, but it dies way more easily. Not to mention, unlike Overseers, DTs can hit it too, while it's building or rooting.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
Also regarding zergs starting to become more creative and a way to transition into ultras.
What about a mass queen/ultra/infestor(for FG) and some spore crawlers for detection/air support push ? Upgraded queens are really imba against massed voids.And if u FG them,queens have 7 range compared to VR 6 range and can heal.Also ultra is almost invulnerable with armor upgrades and Chitinous plating +transfuse.

You're stating an end game composition, there's no realistic way to transition into that without you're opponent maintaining AT LEAST an equal base count, but likely more. Also, the gas consumption of that mix is really high.

Even if mass Queens vs mass Voids ever happened, Voids can stack, allowing the whole group to hit, Queens can't and if the Voids approach the army from the front, the Ultras take a fair bit of space, the Voids could pick out the Ultras from safety. Yes, this will take high micro levels but your range 7 vs range 6 situation would take more, especially if you wanted to talk about Transfusion. You need to be realistic here, the potential is there, but you're talking about a very unlikely situation, even so, if Queens heal perfectly, you just allow for the Voids to charge up cos they get to maintain their beam on a target.

Also, you seem to be under the notion energy charges up really fast, it doesn't, those heals will run out REALLY fast against massed Voids with the 20% on top to massive. As for the Ultras thing, DTs do well, Voids do well and Immortals do well (I'll address your Immortal point next).

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
Immortals? U think he will have like 10 ? If he has like 2-4,NP 2 of them and focus fire the rest.Remember,ultras rape stalkers,the backbone of the toss army,are almost immune to zeal dmg and with proper micro u can dispose of the immortals.And regarding the VR,ur queen force + FG can easily kill them.(Altough this strat is creep bound,with all those queens u can spawn 10k creep tumors)

If you're going blind, drop a Stargate upon seeing the Hive, but if you opened Robo, you can get Immortals if you haven't seen him use Spire tech.

If the Zerg player cans to spend 100 energy to plant his Infestor in place for 15 seconds, I'd trade an Immortal for an Infestor.

With proper positioning and good scouting you should scout the Ultralisk Cavern. If his economy isn't fantastic, he can only churn out an Ultralisk or 2, which are easy to deal with. Yes, If your opponent had infinite money and gas, he can instantly make 8 Ultralisks upon completion of the cavern, and you won't have anything in time to beat that, but that situation doesn't happen, unless the Protoss got outmacro'd, and thus, lost WAY earlier. Not even talking about the gas consumption. There is no realistic situation to get to that mix.

Also, positioning. Engage in areas you can hold, pressure to keep him out of position, use Zealots as meat shields to keep Ultras away, etc. Proper micro??? A channelling spell and fat, melee units... There is close to no micro possible, especially when the positioning is not in favor of the Zerg.

I addressed the Void Ray versus Queens thing above.

As for against FG, the Voids will win mass vs mass, so they don't need to run.

Look, you're talking as if the units don't take up any space and have infinite energy plus full map creep spread. Did the Toss not do anything at all? It's impossible to get to this situation safely. I coudl say Toss could get mass Carrier with Mothership support and there's nothing Zerg could do about it, but how the hell does anyone get there?

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
And remember that toss cant get voids/immortals and stalkers and collosi at the same time lol.

They can't if they're on only 2 bases, but it's possible even with 3. With that consideration, a Zerg can't get that army quickly enough without Toss scouting and KILLING THEM before the army is ready.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
And regarding the choice between broods and ultras.Broods outrange stalkers but if let in the open ,stalkers can just blink under them and snipe them,even at the cost many stalkers.Remember that broods cost just as much as ultras and are quite squishy.theyr better used in a stalemate situation where the toss has turtled,not in normal combat.

Even at the cost of many stalkers... Then you'd win the war of attrition cos you make him lose more than you do. Plus, positioning, don't move your Broodlords to a vulnerable spot. Plus, where's your ground support? Even with Roaches, the Stalker army can't just blink and snipe without losing a butt tonne more resources worth of units than the Zerg did.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
Regarding maps,saying that "that is the situation" is not a valid argument.All the pro players have complained about the current state of maps.All ppl know that they are toss "favored maps" or "zerg oriented maps".
So relying on Blizz error is not a valid argument.Maps change matchups.Once they fix that we will see much use of the ultras.

How is that not a valid argument? YOU saying the maps affect the matchups support MY point that you must look at the current maps not the maps that other people use that aren't official.

The current situation are these maps, so you can't consider open areas. How do you know that if a map has open areas it's not imbalanced for a particular race? You got to take into account army mobility, response times, AOE sizes, cost effectiveness, etc.

Yes, perhaps the maps aren't fair to each race, but that's the state of the game, when the game changes, then we relook at it. Don't develop strategies that can't be implemented in the current state of the game because it's pointless. If maps change, so do strategies. It's the same thing as when units change, strategies also change.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:27 pm by eFxGamer

This looks like quite the heated argument LOL

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:37 pm by GFree

I'm not arguing, he's proposing points. I'm just explaining my view on things. =.=

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:19 pm by rifT_Theory

A pretty concise battle report regarding the use of Hallucinations. I'm still trying to grasp why it amounted to such lenghty discussions about the Protoss and Zerg race.

Off Topic - My Apologies

@ OpKeKRoAkash : -
From my point of view you take it as though Zerg is an incredibly overpowered race against Protoss. Ok . . . I got no comments on this aspect maybe you're just stubborn. If you really think that is the case then just wait for Blizzard to make Protoss vastly superior to Zerg and Terran. Even if that happens I'll still continue to play StarCraft2 because I trust Blizzard. They have been in the gaming business for years so these guys seriously know their stuff.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:

U say that ultras are not the popular choice in pvz.Well that is because of the maps.
Have u tryed an Iccup map? Those maps are not favoring any race and have lots of open space.There u will see that ultra/ling is very deadly and no amount of FF will save u if they rush in and corner u somewhere.Remeber,besides the reduced that,ultras deal 45 dmg vs armored at 0.83 with +3 melee upgrade and with 33% splash.The litterrally kill stalkers in 3 sec.
the only true counter to ultras is either mass immortals with storm for the lings or mass voids.
Zergs use broods instead of ultras because theyr better on the tight maps which ultras find it hard to manouver.
Once blizz gets some decent maps out or tourneys decide to use ICcup maps instead,things will change in late game pvz.

Whuut. When you say those maps don't favour any race, well, that's because ICCUP maps are in StarCraft: BroodWar. SC: BW is the most balanced game out there and it only achieved such status after 12 years. So trying to compare the current state of things (the ladder maps) with ICCUP maps is just illogical. If you want want real balance then suggest to Blizzard to just use one map for ladder and tourneys I'm sure it'll work out great Rolling Eyes

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:47 pm by OpKeKRoAkash


You're stating an end game composition, there's no realistic way to transition into that without you're opponent maintaining AT LEAST an equal base count, but likely more. Also, the gas consumption of that mix is really high.

Even if mass Queens vs mass Voids ever happened, Voids can stack, allowing the whole group to hit, Queens can't and if the Voids approach the army from the front, the Ultras take a fair bit of space, the Voids could pick out the Ultras from safety. Yes, this will take high micro levels but your range 7 vs range 6 situation would take more, especially if you wanted to talk about Transfusion. You need to be realistic here, the potential is there, but you're talking about a very unlikely situation, even so, if Queens heal perfectly, you just allow for the Voids to charge up cos they get to maintain their beam on a target.

Also, you seem to be under the notion energy charges up really fast, it doesn't, those heals will run out REALLY fast against massed Voids with the 20% on top to massive. As for the Ultras thing, DTs do well, Voids do well and Immortals do well (I'll address your Immortal point next).

Man do u read what im saying ? If the VR stack,1 Fungal Growth can hit them all and keep them in place for 8 sec.That stops them from reaching the queens,thahts the whole ideea lol.
And regarding the spores.There a substitute for the overseer but not an replacement.U will also have 1-2 overseers.And if the stalkers blink in the middle to kill the spore,Fungal them and have ur ultras rape them.
This is all theorycrafting in the end,but u only see ur side of the argument.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:01 pm by OpKeKRoAkash

rifT_Theory wrote:A pretty concise battle report regarding the use of Hallucinations. I'm still trying to grasp why it amounted to such lenghty discussions about the Protoss and Zerg race.

Off Topic - My Apologies

@ OpKeKRoAkash : -
From my point of view you take it as though Zerg is an incredibly overpowered race against Protoss. Ok . . . I got no comments on this aspect maybe you're just stubborn. If you really think that is the case then just wait for Blizzard to make Protoss vastly superior to Zerg and Terran. Even if that happens I'll still continue to play StarCraft2 because I trust Blizzard. They have been in the gaming business for years so these guys seriously know their stuff.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:

U say that ultras are not the popular choice in pvz.Well that is because of the maps.
Have u tryed an Iccup map? Those maps are not favoring any race and have lots of open space.There u will see that ultra/ling is very deadly and no amount of FF will save u if they rush in and corner u somewhere.Remeber,besides the reduced that,ultras deal 45 dmg vs armored at 0.83 with +3 melee upgrade and with 33% splash.The litterrally kill stalkers in 3 sec.
the only true counter to ultras is either mass immortals with storm for the lings or mass voids.
Zergs use broods instead of ultras because theyr better on the tight maps which ultras find it hard to manouver.
Once blizz gets some decent maps out or tourneys decide to use ICcup maps instead,things will change in late game pvz.

Whuut. When you say those maps don't favour any race, well, that's because ICCUP maps are in StarCraft: BroodWar. SC: BW is the most balanced game out there and it only achieved such status after 12 years. So trying to compare the current state of things (the ladder maps) with ICCUP maps is just illogical. If you want want real balance then suggest to Blizzard to just use one map for ladder and tourneys I'm sure it'll work out great Rolling Eyes


Serotonin,first of all this was a argument between me and jeffrey.
Second,i never implied that Zerg is OP.We were having a discussion regarding the path 1.2.0 balance changes,from hallu changes to VR change and we went into discussion about the brood vs ultra viability Smile.
I never implied once about zerg being op in this thread.Pls link me the passage where i implied that.


Also,regarding the maps.U are wrong that it took Iccup maps 12 years to be created.The first appear like in 2000-2001.
U know what iccup maps are? First of all Iccup is a wc3/dota/sc:bw server which has its own ladder.

Second,they had a team of the best mapmakers.And they tested with the entire B lvl players (B lvl means 4k points on iccup,something like 2k points diamond now)which provided feedback regarding race balances and imbalances regarding map.
Blizz doesnt do that.They test they own maps with theyr team and thats it.What is better 100 ppl testing a map or 2000 ppl (or more) testing it (2000 ppl who actually play the game)?
koreean sc bw tournaments were made mostly on Iccup ladder maps,not on blizz maps,except for the ocasional Lost temple.

So going with the "dont worry,blizz will fix it in 10 years" is not good.Maps greatly affect gameplay leading to unneccesary balance changes.

For example,if maps were bigger,we wouldnt had seen so much 2 rax marine/svc pressure.And reducing HSM cost to 100 energy cost might fix end game TvZ also,that teran has some other options then to try to end the game before ultras come.

But because blizz will stick to the same mindset,they will operate unneeded race changes which would had been fixed by bigger maps.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:20 pm by rifT_Theory

Errr, OpKeKRoAkash do you know how the forums operate?
Anyone can say anything.
In any case gFree wanted me to butt in because not everyone shares the same "SC: BW ELITIST" mentality as you.

And yes I do know what ICCUP maps are because I played on them for close to 5 years during my younger days.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
So going with the "dont worry,blizz will fix it in 10 years" is not good. Maps greatly affect gameplay leading to unneccesary balance changes.
Honestly speaking the gameplay is pretty polished as it is. If it wasn't GSL would not have happened. Who said anything about StarCraft2 being fixed in 10 years? There are no quick fixes when it comes to RTS which is why it will take time. If it takes 10 years then so be it.

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:

For example,if maps were bigger,we wouldnt had seen so much 2 rax marine/svc pressure.And reducing HSM cost to 100 energy cost might fix end game TvZ also,that teran has some other options then to try to end the game before ultras come.

Hell, even if the maps were bigger and I scouted the Fast Expand I still would do an SCV+Marine push. Do note that, the only way for the SCV+Marine push to actually work, the Zerg has to do a 2 base(early in the game) but it's a different story when the Zerg goes for a Roach Warren or Baneling Nest first before the FE. Terran already have vast options to end the game before ultras come out. I don't know about you but it's called "brains and skills".

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:

Also,regarding the maps.U are wrong that it took Iccup maps 12 years to be created.The first appear like in 2000-2001.

I did not say this!

rifT_Theory wrote:
SC: BW is the most balanced game out there and it only achieved such status after 12 years.
I said the game(SC: BW) took 12 years to be the most balanced game out there. Not the maps Cool

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:

I never implied once about zerg being op in this thread.Pls link me the passage where i implied that.

Over here -->
OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
***
Also,regarding ur ideea that if a ultra goes to shatter a FF it will get sniped.No man,he will just atack move his whole army with his ultras spearheading his army,crush ur ff and surround u with lings.
Ultras with 3/3 and Chitinous Plating are the very counter to stalker/collosus army.Stalkers (assuming +3 dmg,deal 17 dmg vs armored) will deal a total of 11 dmg to them lol.

***
The thing is i used stalker vs ultra case because the stalker is the bulk of the protoss army most of the times.Its our only fast replenishing unit which sucks less then others.
Zeals are only good lings and mostly useless against roaches.HT/DT are used with finesse and not massed.Sentries are more of a support caster which deals little dmg.
The stalker is the only unit which basically sucks then the rest of the gate units.

This is you implying that Zerg is OP. You're saying that Protoss units sucks and stating that Zealots are useless against roaches - did you forget about the charge upgrade?

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:33 pm by OpKeKRoAkash

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:
***
Also,regarding ur ideea that if a ultra goes to shatter a FF it will get sniped.No man,he will just atack move his whole army with his ultras spearheading his army,crush ur ff and surround u with lings.
Ultras with 3/3 and Chitinous Plating are the very counter to stalker/collosus army.Stalkers (assuming +3 dmg,deal 17 dmg vs armored) will deal a total of 11 dmg to them lol.

***
The thing is i used stalker vs ultra case because the stalker is the bulk of the protoss army most of the times.Its our only fast replenishing unit which sucks less then others.
Zeals are only good lings and mostly useless against roaches.HT/DT are used with finesse and not massed.Sentries are more of a support caster which deals little dmg.
The stalker is the only unit which basically sucks then the rest of the gate units.



This is you implying that Zerg is OP. You're saying that Protoss units sucks and stating that Zealots are useless against roaches - did you forget about the charge upgrade?


man...that was a discussion regarding broods vs ultras. U took it out off context lol.And it did not imply that toss is underpowered.I know how to play toss and its not underpowered.I never implied that.U are just trying to dig up something that isnt there.

And yes,zealots are useless vs roaches in the sense that they are not cost effective.Yes u can kill 2 roaches when u have 8 zeals vs 8 roaches fighting,but at what cost,when all ur zeals are dead.

Zeals atack twice and the roaches high armor means that armor is deducted twice.
Fully upgraded zealot deals 11x2 dmg and has 4 armor.
Fully upgraded roach deals 22 armor and has 4 armor.
When the 2 fight the zealot deals 14 dmg,while the roach deals 19 dmg to the shields (assuming +3 shields are up) and 18 dmg to health.

that 4 dmg more.

Charge means nothing. Chargelots have 2.75 movement. Speed roaches have 3.Even off creep they can kite them.On creep the difference becomes even more horrible.

I didnt say they were useless,but getting zeals against roaches is only viable when ur out of gas or just want to put gas into higher tier units,because zeals are just cannon fodder most of the time,even with charge.


Im not a BW elitist.I hardly even played the game in its glory days.But im comparing it sometimes to sc 2 because its the only game that its comparable too.
Yes,i know new units will appear in the 2 expansions,but saying "everything is allright" wont solve everything.

Pls dont try to insult me.Im not an BW elitist.But GFree cant take an argument.Is it his way or the highway.

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:54 pm by rifT_Theory

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/implied?&qsrc=
im·plied 
–adjective
involved, indicated, or suggested without being directly or explicitly stated; tacitly understood

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:

And it did not imply that toss is underpowered.I know how to play toss and its not underpowered.I never implied that.

Well ok Smile

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:11 am by OpKeKRoAkash

rifT_Theory wrote:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/implied?&qsrc=
im·plied 
–adjective
involved, indicated, or suggested without being directly or explicitly stated; tacitly understood

OpKeKRoAkash wrote:

And it did not imply that toss is underpowered.I know how to play toss and its not underpowered.I never implied that.

Well ok Smile

If that matter is solved we can move to other orders of buisness Smile

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:30 am by GFree

I never took this personally and took into account every point you made.

YOU on the other hand, conveniently ignore the parts of my posts you can't refute, and throw accusations of theorycrafting, when you're suggesting a resource insane army that has infinite energy, then say I'm only viewing my points and that it's my way of the highway because you can't give any decent responses to my points. I've never blatantly said 'that's crazy' or 'that's impossible' except to your suggestion of an army that sounds like the goal of any person who ever typed '10 min no atk k?'

Back to top Go down

avatar

Post on Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:28 am by Lasram

Hey guys,

calm down a bit Wink

First of all I dont like the positive/negative thing on each post. Its like pointing fingers at someone and saying you are wrong. Keep being mannered and no such thing is necessary imo.

Second i would like to contribute to the hallucination discussion by saying that i dont think its viable before warpgate in any MU. Vs Z you dont have to scout super early 8after the initial probescout). Vs T if the only reason is to spot cloacked banshees its weird to not get the observer right away because you are going to need them anyway. After all he is going for cloaked banshees Very Happy
If you scout early bio pressure with that phoenix you wont have enough ground forces to fight them cause of the longer build times without warpgates.

The big Ultra vs Broodlord discussion is really lacking the point on how to get there. Gfree mentioned transitions and as a fasirly high ranked Zerg I am backing him up on this point. Its hard to get there survive a midgame push and in a perfect world not get scouted. P should be prepared to handle Ultras if the Zerg doesnt have a significant lead before hand.
No matter what techpath P went (robo, stargate, Templar) there is an answer to ultras in each of them.

At the end I would like to say that the forums should be a place of friendly discussions where theorycrafting is encouraged. So dont bash a member for doing that. In fact I would like to get to a conclusion about that Hallucination thing Smile Thats what this report was about. So lets focus on that people Wink

Cheers

Back to top Go down

Post  by Sponsored content

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum